MM: We meet, Your Excellency, just days after your 83rd birthday. Please accept my belated birthday wishes. Live long and prosper.
RM: (Smiles) Thank you!
MM: How do you feel, physically?
RM: (Laughs) No change. No change.
MM: Zimbabwe is under sanctions and against that background some observers and ordinary Zimbabweans have concluded that the economy is the greatest challenge facing the country. How is the country trying to turn around the economy and do you feel that these efforts are succeeding?
RM: Yes, we are facing sanctions and, of course, the effects of those sanctions. These effects emanate actually from the illegal extension of sanctions that, on the face of them, are meant to be personal. European countries which have imposed sanctions have also proceeded to impose economic sanctions to directly and indirectly withdraw the forms of economic relations that existed before the sanctions. Loans that could be given to us at low interest rates have been withdrawn and, as you are aware, international financial institutions such as the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank have also complied with those sanctions without our actually offending them. We have also had the weather ' drought and so on ' creating hardships so there is need for us to raise the level of the performance of our economy which requires new capital inputs and these are hard to find from international institutions because some of them have heeded the calls by Europe that Zimbabwe is not a safe place for investment. We have analysed the impact of these sanctions and we have decided on our own that we will intensify our relations and co-operation with countries that are well disposed to us, hence our Look East Policy. Within SADC we are intensifying our relationship with countries that, naturally, can co-operate with us and this visit (to Namibia) is one such attempt. Within the country we are looking at all our various sectors ' and they are all viable sectors. Agriculture is the mainstay of our economy and we have been trying to emphasise that to get our people to produce as much as possible. The land that is the factor in these sanctions must be utilised to the best advantage. Naturally the process is an ongoing one. We have to empower the small grower and we are doing quite well in that regard. So we hope that the agriculture sector will become more viable with time. We have also been looking at critical enterprises in the manufacturing sector and trying to boost these deliberately in order for them to enhance production.
The mining sector also has huge potential which has not been tapped and so with the discovery of various minerals ' diamonds and so on ' we shall exploit these in order to establish that viability that enables us to withstand these sanctions. At the political front, the (Zanu-PF) party is very, very strong. That's why you see the opposition parties wriggling this way or that way appealing to outsiders to intervene and, of course, appealing to their masters to give them more money to cause disturbances in the country, but they won't succeed in that direction. It's an illegal direction and we won't allow it to be a way to power. The way to power is through elections; the parliamentary process. We are ideologising our people, politicising them and giving them the necessary political material to withstand the difficulties.
The rural people who are in the majority ' they form about three-quarters of the population ' can withstand pressure and hardship better; more than the urban "sugar people" as we call them. These melt like sugar in the face of difficulties. So the cry is more in the urban areas than the rural areas where people suffer most because their standard of living is still low and they are still peasants. These are the people who contributed much more to our liberation struggle than the urban people. They don't change. They are not as fickle as the man in the streets of Harare, Bulawayo, Gweru or Mutare. This is not to say that we don't have support there. We have immense support, especially now that they have realised that the MDC are useless, whether you look at them from the point of view of the MDC of (Morgan) Tsvangirai or (Professor Arthur) Mutambara. They have no agenda, absolutely none except one: to overthrow Zanu-PF. But as to why they want to overthrow Zanu-PF and why they want to rule they have not told the people anything except to say they will be better. How better? We are, as much as possible, engaging the private sector and engaging the working class in tripartite arrangements for them to realise that the situation requires co-operation. True, there is always the need for higher wages, especially in the face of inflation, which is our number one enemy at the moment. There is a need for us to realise that inflation is having an effect on the people, especially the working class, and try and have a well-calculated method of increasing the wages and salaries of people. The people are crying. The professionals are crying and some are leaving the country because the situation is not comfortable for them.
MM: Your Excellency, you have spoken passionately about the need for productivity on the land that has been redistributed to the people and your government has threatened to repossess land from layabouts. To what extent, in your view, has there been a correlation between the passion with which you have spoken about the need for productivity and the pace of repossession of idle land?
RM: You have to realise that land was given to people not long ago and some people have the desire, the enthusiasm to do farming but that enthusiasm is not backed by resources. We will create facilities for them through the banks. This means funds that they can tap to buy inputs so that when they have harvested they refund the money. But those who are not utilising the land we are now doing an audit to that effect' We will look at the reasons why each and every person who is not able to utilise the land is in that position. Is it because the land is too large? Or is it because they never had any farming attitude or desire from the beginning and just joined in the cry for land as an asset to look at? If that is the case, we will take back the land but we won't be arbitrary about it.
MM: You have also spoken strongly against corruption. To what extent has corruption undermined the core values of Zimbabwean society and do you think the war against corruption is being won?
RM: With regard to the first part of your question there has been quite a lot of that (corruption) across the sectors ' public and private. But government can only talk of what government sees in its sector ' the public sector. Incidents of corruption do come to light in the private sector. There are lots of them . . . and we have taken action . . . We are not the only ones like that. Even in Europe it's corruption, corruption, corruption everywhere, but we talk about it loudly than others and that's why it appears as if Zimbabwe is number one country in terms of corrupt activities. Yes, we punish those in government and even in the arms of security. Almost every week we encounter cases of corruption.
MM: Western-prescribed economic policies have injured many developing countries. How enthusiastic is your government to develop relations with international financial institutions such as the IMF and the World Bank?
RM: The World Bank, for a start, was quite a good friend and did not heed the call for sanctions and we benefited from loans that we got from the World Bank, but a few years back the attitude of the World Bank became similar to the attitude of the IMF. They could not extend loans to us although in terms of their conditions and criteria we qualified. They could not extend loans to us unless London and Washington gave the nod . . . Yet these are international institutions to which we all belong. One member should not be in a position to arbitrate or stand in the way of another. Granted, countries like the US contribute much more to the funds that are relied upon by the IMF and World Bank but they should not be arbitrary. They should not be unethical. If there is a violation of the conditions that are required to be satisfied, then that is a different matter but subjectivity should not be allowed as criteria to determine who shall and who shall not receive loans from the bank.
MM: Your government has adopted a Look East Policy. What prompted this and what tangible benefits have you realised from this policy?
RM: Well, really, when we announced and declared a Look East Policy, the declaration was the only new phenomenon but historically we had long looked east. (Laughs) We looked east for our liberation struggle and for our freedom. It was Look East Policy. We all went to the east ' China, Korea, India (India did not give any weapons but gave us humanitarian support). Even the Soviet Union was regarded as the east because they worked closely with China. They gave us arms, political and diplomatic support. After independence we continued to rely on them. We relied on China quite a lot to the extent of getting them to help us establish a defence industry. They built our stadiums and did a lot of other things that we asked them to do. We have always looked east. So when I said let's look east I meant that we should intensify with regard to Zimbabwe in terms of our relations and get them to take up places of the Western countries who were withdrawing their aid and this is what we have done. We have proceeded with China; we have made friends with Malaysia, Indonesia, Japan and others.
MM: Your Excellency, what, in your view, are this region's prospects in terms of integration, peace and stability?
RM: You mean the SADC region?
MM: Yes.
RM: Sure. SADC I think is the most viable of all our African regional organisations. ECOWAS was born much earlier than SADC and although ECOWAS has done some very good things, especially in regard to issues of security and military help given to various countries that experienced coups, in terms of actual relationships ' economic relationships ' I think SADC is leading. We are more politically together because of the Frontline States experience. My view is that we should be integrated much more economically and perhaps much more politically and hence we have been discussing the issue of creating an environment within SADC that enables this economic co-operation to succeed and looking at our relations with regard to trade. We felt that there was need to bring down tariff walls that prevent free trade between us. So that front is being taken care of. We also have the organ of politics, defence and security to ensure thatvalues of democracy and good governance are sustained so that no illegal governments emerge by way of coups . . . That we have resisted and I am glad that to date we have not allowed such attempts to succeed. RENAMO had to be beaten into the area of democratic pursuance of power by going into elections ' we had to send troops to DRC from three countries ' Angola, Namibia and Zimbabwe ' to prevent the overthrow of a government by its neighbours and we are glad that now there is that political order that allowed elections to take place. So we think we are succeeding but we have to move fast and moving fast means really not being afraid to co-operate and form partnerships, ventures and so on that can benefit us mutually, bilaterally or even multilaterally. I think SADC is going to be the leader economically and politically in the integration process that the African Union is engaged in bringing about.
MM: Your Excellency, you hold the highest number of earned academic degrees ' at least seven of them ' among heads of state in human history. To what extent has your learning been useful in your job as leader?
RM: (Laughs) In human history? I have never compared with anyone. I just got them one after the other. I don't mean honorary degrees. Those are given to me free of charge, but studying has been very, very beneficial. I studied the arts. I was a teacher so the love for developing and bringing up children, I think, stems from my having been a teacher. It has also gotten an input from politics. To bring about equality in our society you can't have some people educated and others uneducated. Economics? Sure. You know when you are being misguided or misled as we are always being misled by bookish economists that we are going astray. That is why there have been constant quarrels over the years with the Reserve Bank (of Zimbabwe) and the Ministry of Finance because they are bookish. They think the IMF has the gospel truth, which it hasn't ' One Jamaican leader once said: 'Show me one country that has ever succeeded on IMF prescriptions.' None. Yet we still go to the IMF and ask for funds. Kwadzinorohwa matumbu ndokwadzino mhanyira, semombe! (literally: They keep on running back to where they are hit like cattle! (Laughs). The IMF prescriptions are disastrous. Absolutely disastrous! If we had followed them ' 'Don't educate all, you must distribute your resources over sectors'. That's fine, but distribute them to what advantage, and who is the beneficiary in the end? ' So emphasise the education of your people and give them free education for a start and this is what we did. We have created an enlightened society. We still have to go some way imparting skills . . . you are better off with a group of unemployed educated people than with unemployed ignoramuses . . . Illiterates are just like mechanical tools' I also did administration and management; how to manage things in the public sector. You know when you are talked to by people on a subject you don't know and you are a leader, ah! (Laughter all round).
MM: Your Excellency, you have indicated that at some point you would like to take a rest and write. What sort of things do you want to write about?
RM: To write about? Well, just doing my memoirs ' political. But I am literary and I used to do a bit of poetry but didn't publish it. My work vanished ' taken by CIO (Central Intelligence Organisation), hameno kwavakazviisa (I don't know where they put it). I like writing poetry as a student of literature. A political novel would be very interesting to do and bring in vana (the likes of) Ian Smith and others. And drama.
MM: When all has been said and done, how would you want this world to remember you?
RM: (Goes quiet for a while, tilts head to one side, speaks slowly and calmly) Remember me as a son of peasants who, naturally, loved his country, fought for it and suffered for it and tried his best to raise the standard of living for his people and to develop his country. That's all. Nothing more, really. We all make our contributions. This world is but a stage. Every man plays his part. I hope mine will not be a sad part.
MM: Finally, Your Excellency, the ruling party has proposed harmonisation of presidential and parliamentary polls so that they are held simultaneously in 2010. Discussions, we are told, are ongoing. If it is decided that polls must be held in 2008 and the party decides that you should be its candidate, would you be willing to stand again?
RM: If the party says so, I will stand. The harmonisation has nothing to do with extension of the Presidency. It's really for the fact of avoidance of too many elections for the people and this long term of six years for Presidency, I guess, we borrowed it from the French. The French have even seven years, so we thought seven years was too long; if Parliament had been a six-year term . . . then it would coincide with that of President, but let the presidential elections and parliamentary be held together ' that makes sense.
And whether it's the President who is affected or anyone else, let it be that.
Now we have different viewpoints ' those who say now let's leave the status quo as it is, others say let's proceed . . . Parliament actually is the maker of laws, including the Constitution, and can extend the term of President by another two years to coincide with the elections that will be held in 2010. Others are of the view that no, let's have elections in 2008 and then shorten the term of Parliament. I don't know if parliamentarians will like that, but whichever way they desire, I will go along with it. But it has not been decided ' these are just ideas that found expression in the individual resolutions from provinces and we have not even said we will do this or that, but then you find the opposition fighting an idea. So I don't know what they will be fighting, unless they are saying politically they don't agree with it. They can't say it is illegal, it won't be illegal at all but I suppose our people are, from what I get, now are tending towards an election next year rather than an election in 2010, that's what I am getting from quite a good many top leaders saying it is better we go for joint elections, the presidential elections and for a five-year period and parliamentary will be in five years also but from next year instead of 2010.
MM: Your Excellency, thank you for taking time off your busy schedule to talk to me.
RM: (Handshake) Tatenda (Thank you).
